How do I select multiple controls in the designer? I used to be able to control+click to select multiple controls and then use the alignment toolbar to align and size them. That obviously doesn't work in VS 2008. How is that done?

Styling and layout should be achieved using CSS. There's some useful tutorials on page layout here:

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/practicalcss

I think you misunderstood the original question.

OK, everybody, pay attention: According to Microsoft, ctrl+click as a means to select multiple controls was left out of VS2008. Apparently, MS thought this was a 'feature' that wasn't necessary. Like ctrl+c or ctrl+v for copy and paste is a 'feature', or the on/off switch is a 'feature' that some brilliant engineer at MS might also someday decide is no longer needed. ctrl+click for multiple select exists in almost every windows app (and windows itself) since the beginning of time. But MS decided we don't need it. However, it will make its return in VS2010. So, we have only 2 short years (assuming the ship date doesn't slip) to get this 'feature' back.

It has nothing to do with CSS layout or tables or international standards for how to markup anything. It is a combination of keystrokes that MS has arbitrarily decided we don't need. Just like MS arbitrarily decided we don't need to work on our SQL Server Reproting Services projects in VS2008, so they left BIDS support out as well. I guess they expect that we'll all upgrade to SQL Server 2008 and force all our clients to upgrade as well.

Here's the official word:

I'd like to say that feature was not removed. VS 2008 designer never had it. VS 2008 designer is based on former FrontPage while VS 2005 was based on IE6. There is no common code base. So it is not like the feature was disabled, it simply never existed in the current code base. So we'll have to write new code (VS 2005 code cannot be used, old designer is completely different).

SGWellens:

I think you misunderstood the original question.

Yes, I think I did a bit. I thought the user wanted to set widths of elements (and also align them) when they were rendered to the browser. That's why I suggested CSS. If the poster just wants to set them in the designer, then it looks as though you can't do this after reading his last post.

Personally, I don't see the need for this anyway as the "design" window  is something I never use nor do I see the point of.

Or maybe it's just handy to select multiple controls to set a common property. Maybe you don't use the designer, but maybe there are application developers that are more concerned with actually developing software than the arcana of a crude, pseudo-language that is designed for marking up documents.

 Quite possibly. In all my web programming days I've never had the need to do this or to rely so heavily on the IDE, but if you have then maybe that's just your way of developing applications.

Coding and business logic, and database design, and usability are way more important than knowing how to markup a document. But hey, I'm wierd like that.

You're correct. I don't remember saying they weren't though? I just said I don't need to rely on the IDE for creating a user interface.

Play nice now...

I have to agree with the assertion that multiple selection via ctrl+click is not a 'feature' and deviating from a practice so well established was foolish on MS's part.

As of VS2008, the design interface has become painful to endure.  It was never well suited for HTML/CSS design and I have yet to see any IDE that is; it always comes down to editing CSS by hand and evaluating the results.  But in the case of the original post, I can certainly understand how the designer would be a useful item using absolute positioning with web applications (think windows app form layout) and without the ability to select multiple elements, once simple tasks like aligning elements will become a rapidly frustrating endeavor.

MS's response that they aren't aren't going to fix this in '08 is terribly disappointing...

MSHatesUs:

I can certainly understand how the designer would be a useful item using absolute positioning with web applications (think windows app form layout) and without the ability to select multiple elements, once simple tasks like aligning elements will become a rapidly frustrating endeavor.

Maybe that is where the differences in opinions lie. If you absolutely position anything, then it takes it out of the normal document flow, meaning that it isn't actually part of the structure anymore. There are very few cases where absolute positioning is needed, and the thought of creating an application made up entirely of absolutely positioned element just defies all best practices. VS2003 made a mistake of making "GridLayout" the default selection for web applications, and new developers (or developers coming from a windows application based background) didn't and in certain cases still don't grasp how design and layout differs between web and desktop development. Luckily, this mistake was rectified in VS2005, but there are still people who haven't understood why it's bad practice. Personally, I think this is something that is learnt over time, and having to redevelop a website layout/style is about the time it kicks in for most people.

 
Websites such as http://csszengarden.com should be an inspiration for how presentation and style should be seperated from content, but this type of knowledge sometimes isn't understood or grasped by some people.



 

Hear, hear! Yes, there are those of us out here who are application developers and in this age must use the crude, document viewer/interpreter called a 'browser' to render the user interface. In a windows form app, or MS Access -- or back in the day before browsers, PowerBuilder or Paradox for Windows, etc -- why do I care about the code under the hood that describes the look and position of a button or text box. So I get a little put off by those (MS included) who think that CSS and HTML coding is something worth investing some skill in and a visual design environment is for pogues. If I want to drag a text box or 2 or 10 and align them with the click of a button, that doesn't make me deficient because I don't care to know what tags do that; it makes me more PRODUCTIVE because I don't have to mess with that. Are you listening, MS? That is the whole raison d' etre for Visual Programming tools. Remember when you had to write 50 lines of code in an editor/compiler just to render a button before visual programming tools? So, HTML/CSS hotshots, brag away about writing code that has nothing to do with logic or anything productive. That all fits under the category of 'don't believe I'd have told that one'. Go use Notepad or EDLIN or Copy Con for that matter

ThomasDerenthal1:

Yes, there are those of us out here who are application developers and in this age must use the crude, document viewer/interpreter called a 'browser' to render the user interface.

Unfortunately for you, this is how web applications and HTML documents are going to be viewed and there's nothing you can do about it apart from accept it.

ThomasDerenthal1:

So I get a little put off by those (MS included) who think that CSS and HTML coding is something worth investing some skill in and a visual design environment is for pogues.

You don't have to invest any time in it if you don't want to. You can make the decision to stick with desktop development if you want.

The obvious differences between web development and windows development is that you don't know which environment (browser) the user will decide to view your document from. Each browser may render things differently (yes, we'd all like this to not be the case, but the fact is that there are varying levels of support for the standards between browsers) and this is something you have to consider. With your windows development, everything is absolutely positioned and you know that this will be the case for all your users. You don't get this luxury in web development.

Although you don't want to learn or understand HTML and CSS they actually bring a big advantage to applications and developers who do understand them. By separating the visual styles and presentations from the actual content, this allows two things:

1. Designers can be employed to make the site visually attractive. The developers don't have to deal with this side of things and can get the functionality of the site created whilst the designers concentrate on making the site appeal to users.
2. When it comes to a redesign (and this is something that clients request more frequently than you might imagine), you don't have to touch any of the actual content or controls (textboxes, buttons etc). You simply drop a new css file into the site and the whole site is transformed (see the http://csszengarden.com site I mentioned previously for how a new css file completely changes the site).

Now, if you can't see the benefit of any of this, maybe web development isn't for you and you'd be better suited to the windows development that you presumably do now?

I think we have to concede that there is no resolution here and this thread should end.  While in the perfect world we would be able to develop in and for one environment and deploy in several, that simply isn't the case.

Here's the point in all of this.  Fix the multiple selection problem, MS.  You developed an IDE that is used by web AND windows developers and it should behave consistently for both.  Your choice to override long standing practice was just plain dumb and telling us that we all just have to wait (and pay for, again!) the solution just isn't very nice.  You call us all partners but treat us like complaining children, except that you get the annual allowance...

MSHatesUs:

I think we have to concede that there is no resolution here and this thread should end.  While in the perfect world we would be able to develop in and for one environment and deploy in several, that simply isn't the case.

That's a good suggestion. It's nice to hear a sensible voice of reason.

Yep, put multiple selection back ASAP. 

 I have some ASP pages to re-do, they already have about 60 labels and text boxes that all need to be move down about 1/2 inch to make room for some more controls.  Plus they all need to be aligned.  to do that now, I've got to handle each one individually and then go into code and adjust the Top and Left positions to make sure everything lines up correctly. 

 Think I'll open the page in VS 2005 and make the adjustments there. 

Cchuck Snyder