well templatemonster skins are for a much broader audience so you have a better change of selling them more. A good skin takes time and there are plenty of realy nice dnn skins around there. Most of these however are custom designed. And a skin doesnt stop with just the design you need to make sure that all dnn content will fit in it nicely. There are a few around that I would concidder buying but some of them you just see too much.

I have done custom skins and i know from others that have done it too and prices will star at 250 for simple skins up to far in the 1000 for more complex ones.

You can make dnn look good with real custom skins.

http://www.schwingnuke.com
http://www.ngf.nl
http://www.offshoreprogrammeur.com

You can also have a templatemonster skin converted over to dnn but that will also set you fack a few 100 if you want to have it done right,.

There are a few quite capapble skinners around here thatdont even take the effort of making skins for snowcovered but there custom designs rule.

m00nun1t wrote:

Thanks nokiko for some good examples. That kind of illustrates my point - I have no doubt the DNN is capable of great skins. I also know the amount of work that goes into making a good skin, I've worked closely with designers for many years. And I know that if I'm prepared to pay the $ on a custom skin (and I would have thought $1000 was a pretty cheap price for a custom skin) I can get something good. My question was why are the purchasable pre-made skins such low quality. Seems like someone could clean up if they made 3 or 4 nice skins. I'd buy. Maybe it's a question with no answer - they just don't exist.

I am going to agree with the original post.  There is a severe lack of truly professional DotNetNuke skins out there.

Though I recognize that many of the TemplateMonster skins are targeted at a particular niche, most of them tend to be more pleasing and look more professional than most DNN skins.

I'd be willing to spend $300 per skin to have something on TemplateMonster (which I'd pay for) converted to a DNN skin that actually works for my clients. 

Any takers?

m00nun1t wrote:

....but browsing around the various dnn skinning sites, they all look like they are done, well, by programmers, not designers.

That is the correct conclusion. The DNN framework requires a raft of development skills to understand and implement and those skills are seldom found to the proper extent in a good designer.

DNN sites can definitely be made to look good, however I would also warn that simply obtaining a nice looking skin is only a fraction of the task.  Paying someone to convert a template monster skin is a perfectly reasonable and viable option, and it is on offer around the community.

The truly difficult bit is however is shoehorning all the different modules into the skin without stuffing up the appearance. This is not able to be done without extensive work on each individual module. Some modules are almost impossible to alter at all unless you get the source and recompile. There is no design or layout standard and every module ends up looking completely different... that's unless you haven't got an eye for design and layout.. but from your post you obviously do.

A DNN skin is after all, just the bit around the back (skin) plus the bit around the modules (container)... and it's surprising just how often the containers only get in the way of the layout - does every single element on a page need a title and a print button?!? The DNN skin does not deal with the modules themselves nor their content. I spend more time dealing with this aspect than any other part of building a DNN site.

I've been over the skinning 'framework' flaws many times in the forums to little appreciation and zero effect. The community is largely inhabited by developers and that's pretty much the end of that discussion. Slap me!

Rob

robaxx wrote:

DNN sites can definitely be made to look good, however I would also warn that simply obtaining a nice looking skin is only a fraction of the task.  

The truly difficult bit is however is shoehorning all the different modules into the skin without stuffing up the appearance. This is not able to be done without extensive work on each individual module. Some modules are almost impossible to alter at all unless you get the source and recompile. There is no design or layout standard and every module ends up looking completely different... that's unless you haven't got an eye for design and layout.. but from your post you obviously do.

A DNN skin is after all, just the bit around the back (skin) plus the bit around the modules (container)... and it's surprising just how often the containers only get in the way of the layout - does every single element on a page need a title and a print button?!? The DNN skin does not deal with the modules themselves nor their content. I spend more time dealing with this aspect than any other part of building a DNN site.

I've been over the skinning 'framework' flaws many times in the forums to little appreciation and zero effect. The community is largely inhabited by developers and that's pretty much the end of that discussion. Slap me!

Rob

I recently updated the look of my site (I think it improved.. lol) and during this activity I re-discovered the following:

• 80% of the time I do not use a container or use a "none"container (i.e. one with no title and no formatting)
• I spend a LOT of time on layout: getting text quotes, headings, pictures and flat text look good. I used a single HTML module and started playing around with tables in which texts and pictures were placed. Having a skin with many panes does help somewhat. Also I find the FCK editor much easier to work with.
• some modules are hard to skin, one is at the mercy of the module developper. One has to learn the definitions of the module. This simply means extra work. (BTW I don't see a simple solution for this issue)

Just my experience.

Peter

Mmm can skins can be made like you want, but dont expect quality from Snovwcovered. After all you get what you pay for an mass skin production isnt realy the way to set you apart from the competition.

Look outside of dnn, there are plenty of opensource webdesigns which can be converted over to dnn sites, this can be simple html templates, but also the various php portal and cms system have similar setups which are very easy to convert over.

There are a number of those php sites or contests with very nice themes for lets name on word press. These are setup correctly for portal and dynamic content display and converting it over to dnn takes  few hours. All that is left is drop in the dnn menu ( Altho I prefer Telerik )

just look a bit further and you will find some gems better than a non working skin from snowcovered, a tempalet ripoff from some sites or even worse yet another skin with the title msn like, microsoft like etc.

If you want to make your own skin I would suggest starting with one of Nina's, her html and css setup cant be beaten, its perfect qulity for anyone to learn from and very well structured to find your way around and use yourself

I think this (?Honestly, I wouldn't pay $50 for a skin?) is the real reason you don?t find good designers building DNN relative skins. Not all, but a good deal of the DNN community don?t really value design. I mean if as a designer I was to say ?I wouldn?t pay more than $50 for any module regardless of what it did and how well it did it? I would be laughed at and told that the development takes a lot of time and thus warrants the money. The same goes for design. Also, what I think the OP was saying is that the quality of the designs offered for DNN are mostly very low. I look at designs on SnowCovered and as a designer I often see major flaws that make me instantly discount the designer/developer as junior or inexperienced. Some of these flaws are rounded corners that are incorrectly anti-aliased or very poor color management, to name but a few. Believe it or not design takes more than just a keen eye and a self proclaimed sense of color. Many good designers have several years of professional experience and degrees.

Think if it this way, (for lack of a better analogy) it?s a lot like buying a new car. Do you buy the car because it has doors and wheels and goes from point A to point B? In most cases I would say no because this is expected from every car, it?s the packaging or design that really draws the customer base to want that new whatever model. This is a bit over simplified but then again most people are very simple when they go out and buy the products they buy. Here is a word of advice from a designer who does custom DNN skinning only, in most cases you get what you pay for. If you want a really good look and feel might be looking at several hundreds of dollars and a few weeks of design/development with an experienced designer but in the end it will most likely be the best solution for your needs.

You know I have a few subscribers on my site now - around 15,000 and I've seen several of them who are now selling skins on Snow, some copying my methods and styles/ideas and hey I can live with that - it's good to see that some  and I honestly find it very hard to accept the quality of work that's around too.  I've found that skinning is entwined with design, functionality and experience and Rob is right - Learn DNN learn what it can do and get content into a site before you decide that you are going to put on the site.

I had this idea that I could turn out heaps and heaps of fantastic skins but honestly most of my work is custom design work where the clients wasn to have more advice than providing a handful of files to make a site look good.

Lately I've been working more with developers and design companies that have come to the conclusion that skinning is an area of it's own. And this has been from companies with in house designers and developers who can't seem to get the two to gel becuase one has a lack of knowledge of design elements, and the other only knows basic html or straight graphics and they can't seem to meet in the middle in a timely manner or reflecting a quality of finished product that reflects the quality of their design or development. So I see that skinning in itself is not just about making a few files pretty, it's really about working with someone who understands DNN thoroughly and has concepts of design and development - not they they may be completely qualified in either, but you do need to have some elements of skill here or you will struggle. And that's if you're doing high end work I mean, not just creating a simple site that can probably easily picked I suppose.

I've been creating a knowledgebase for quite some time now - and it's got alot of depth to it but found it virtually impossible to create a generic instruction on how to build a skin - the documentation within the skin docs is enough to get most people started, but most people don't read anything - and don't take the time to learn dnn thoroughly.  It's not released to the public, but consists of a couple of hundred pages of information, things I've found, worked around, dnn quirks, solpart menu.. so much more but it has to wait until I get my commercial work done and that has been set back so I've fallen behind in my committments to the dnn community too.

I think though that things are changing in the future and the next 12 months will see a maturation of the whole business as it's done so over the last 12 months. And that's just a time cycle in the process of software I would think.

I agree that overall there is a shortcoming of good quality skins, but the good quality work takes much more that what the general public will pay in a templated method of selling. And I don't know if you've had a look at the files from template monster - OMG they are mostly absolute rubbish to use even as websites. All most people buy from there are purchasing a design layout they like the look and feel of and the PSD file that comes with it.

What the answers are - I'm not sure- I could also create a post on the module quality that is around these days - I could talk all week on that - and it affects how a site performs much more than a lousy skin - that's for sure.  But again, over time we're improving the status of things.

I've tried what I can with my limited time I have to impart some of my knowledge, but have come to the realisation, as I expressed in agreeance with Rob, that you must know DNN and how it works to at least create a decent skin for it.  I mean - I can't imagine a module developer deciding to create modules without doing some investigation, so why do we think that skinning would even be any different.

That's my thoughts on the matter for now.  But I like reading people's opinions on things.. Some say skinning is dead easy - great - show me the work.. I still say skinning is easy - Great skinning is hard, and Sensation skinning is a class of it's own!  The more you know about DNN the better you can get.

Nina Meiers

One of the inherent problems in a framework like DNN is that it can't easily be used by a single person.  You can't do exceptional skins without at least understanding the programming side.  You can't make a decent module without thinking about the graphics and skinning.  And you can't even just use DNN unless you're a little bit programmer and designer.  It's a portal framework.  A decent team of programmers and designers can build a great portal from it, one that end users can actually use.  But it's not the out of the box solution many expect it to be.

Nothing in DNN has to cost money.  But you have to be willing to pay in sweat to keep from paying in money.

Jeff

I really don't see how DNN is different from any normal web project more complex than a brochureware site. DNN doesn't make it special, and the skills required are exactly the same as any complex site.

Um  no offence m00nn1t, the site looks nice, but it's not what I would call a designer cutting edge.

It's what I would a standard skin with a couple of mods to the background. 

So your's is a good example of brochureware site, with a few pages, a few mods to the background images and pane classes, and I would class great for a beginner to try.  And you have sucessfully achieved the affect of an attractive web presence with flexilibity for you to modify.

Nina Meiers